[Fireproof]

I figured the Ladies' Lounge needed some new posts, so here you go. Of course, this particular post is relevant to anyone, but since women tend to suffer from "stubborn bodyfat" even worse than men, I thought I'd post it here.

Originally Posted by Lyle McDonald

Getting Rid of Stubborn Bodyfat- by Lyle McDonald

Without going into the brutally long and complicated mental computations that led me to this (and I'm still working on the overall scheme), here's my current thoughts on how to approach it.

First and foremost, this is one of the places where morning/pre-breakfast cardio is probably crucially important.

An hour or two before cardio, take 200 mg caffeine with 1-3 grams of L-tyrosine (NO ephedrine).

There are two segments to the cardio:

- The first segment is for mobilization, to get those stubborn fatty acids out of the fat cell.
- The second segment is the oxidation part, to burn them off in the muscle.

For the first segment of the cardio, use a machine that you don't normally use. So if you normally do the treadmill, do the first segment on the stairmaster or bike or something. Just make it different.

First segment:
warmup: 3-5 minutes
go hard: 5-10 minutes. I mean hard, as hard as you can stand for the entire time. This will NOT be fun on lowered blood glucose. I've considered putting intervals here but haven't found the data I need to make up my mind. If you do intervals, go something like 5X1' all out with a 1' break (10' total intervals)

Rest 5', just sit on your butt, drink water, try not to puke.

Go to your normal cardio machine. Do at least 30 minutes at moderate/high moderate intensity (below lactate threshold but decent intensity). I'd say 45' maximum here but I'm still making up my mind and looking at data.

Go home, and wait and hour before having a small protein meal (25-50 grams or so). No dietary fat. 2-3 hours later, go back to normal diet eating. Your daily calories shouldn't be any different than they were already, they are just distributed differently, you only have 100-200 immediately after cardio, and then the rest afterwards.

I'd do that maybe 3 days per week to start, and see what happens.

Why this works

To get stubborn fat mobilized, you have to overcome a fairly severe resistance in terms of both blood flow and lipolysis, this requires very high concentrations of catecholamines (adrenaline/noradrenaline). Sadly, jacking up levels of catecholamines (necessary for mobilization) limits burning in the muscle which is why you follow the high intensity with low intensity.

Basically, you jack up levels to get the fat mobilized, and then let them fall so that the fatty acid can be burned in the muscle.

I have a study showing that Ephedrine before intense activity lowers the catecholamine response, that's the reason for avoiding it. Studies also show a lower than normal catecholamine response as people adapt to a given type of cardio; doing a different machine will result in a higher catecholamine response than you'd other wise get.


The bigger problem with stubborn fat has to do with:

- Blood flow to the fat cells: which is typically very low, odds are your butt is cold to the touch compared to other areas of your body
- It's harder to mobilize: both because of impaired blood flow, and because of adrenoceptor issues.

Oral yohimbe (0.2 mg/kg) can be effective when used over the long term. Don't take it within 3-4 hours of taking ephedrine, and start with a half-dose to assess tolerance (some people get really freaky responses from it). IF you can find pharmaceutical yohimbine, it's far far better than the herbal version (and most of the herbal versions are crap, the only one I trust is Twinlab Yohimbe Fuel).

Taking the yohimbe with caffeine prior to morning cardio does seem to help with very stubborn fat.

A couple comments:

1. There was a great study on Yohimbe effectiveness for weightloss. You can find it in our Research Corner forum. And if you want to try it - go to an online retailer and get bulk yohimbine hcl powder. Recommended dosage is 0.2mg/kg of bodyweight.

2. Someone asked Lyle if you had to do it first thing in the morning if you were eating low-carbs. Short answer is no. So since you'll be Phase 1, any time of day should work. Here's his answer:

Originally Posted by Lyle

"On a very low carb diet, I think that the timing is less important. First thing in the morning is probably ideal but it'll be less of an issue on something like UD2 or a strict keto diet. If you're worried about it, try to do it at least 3-4 hours away from your last meal."

[Leah]

Interesting. I'm wondering how this applies if you haven't really been doing any cardio at all...like for the last year, basically. (my excuse...mono, bronchitis, knee injuries, no motivation...ha)

I guess it wouldn't really be stubborn fat since you've not been trying to lose it.

Yep, I'm a retard.

[Fireproof]

LOL - you crack me up.


Maybe it IS stubborn and just hasn't been tested in a long time. Hehe.


I think it depends on your level of leanness. Stubborn bodyfat has less bloodflow which makes it harder to oxidize. So some of the characteristics of stubborn fat are not tied to whether you've been dieting or not. So if you are lean, even if you haven't been dieting, you could be down to the fat that is in fact stubborn or difficult to get rid of.


For women, you are likely getting to stubborn fat if you are in the mid-teens in bodyfat %. For guys, it's when we get under 10%.

[Elle]

Interesting! I think I am going to send this to my coach and see what he thinks about this and how it may be used during my prep.


Also explains my cold ass......

[Fireproof]

LOL at your cold ass!! My wife's is cold too. We laughed about it after reading this article.

[Kryptic]

Originally Posted by Fireproof

LOL at your cold ass!! My wife's is cold too. We laughed about it after reading this article.

Yes, that seems to be a common thread in reading this article. My fiance mentioned it too...

[soccerchick]

another member of the cold ass club here.

(i think my whole body is stubborn though )

[Fireproof]

LOL.

Uh oh. I'm missing smiilies now. Yikes. Hang on.

[Fireproof]

Bump. Dang, where are my smilies?

[soccerchick]

I need to re-read this...

[Redneck]

Problem I have with the above protocol is that without the ephedrine, there likely ain't gonna be much intense activity going on.

And if you're on an MAOI, DO NOT take tyrosine! That amount would send you into hypertensive crisis. Not too many people on MAOIs these days, though.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by soccerchick

I need to re-read this...

Me too. I think I'm hitting a plateau. I need something to shake things up a bit.

[Fireproof]

Update on this. My wife followed the protocol for about 3 weeks and noticed primarily changes in her thighs and triceps which correspond to her stubborn fat locations. So that's cool!

[Ozz]

Very cool! Maybe I'll work some of this into my next cut to get rid of the sore spots that always remain.

[texasmouth]

OK, a couple of questions here......

1. Should I be on a lower carb diet since I am trying to cut body fat?
1B. What exactly would "low carb" be? 25-50 grams of carbs or less?

2. Right now I am staying within 1800-2000 calories a day, is that about right for someone who is 20 lbs over weight (188 now want to be 168)?

3. What constitutes "stubborn fat?" All of my fat is stubborn fat. I have been watching what I eat, exercising daily, lifting three days a week and I am seeing very little results. I started out at 192 and now I fluctuate from 186-188.

I am also on midnight shift so being on any "set" schedule is tough.

[Fireproof]

1. I don't really care for consistently low carb diets for a long period of time. Especially if you are training. You can go really low carb for a couple weeks. Or you can carb cycle. But I think you can still make good progress with decent carbs in your diet (30%?) If you are concerned about it, you can eat low carb (<50gg) on non-weight training days and then have decent / average carbs on weight training days. And try to get your carbs primarily before and after your training.

2. That means you are at about 10x your bodyweight in calories. That's probably about right. Some people can consume a little more and still lose weight. Others less. I was able to continue good weightloss at the 10x level for a while, but did have to start dipping into 8xbodyweight to break plateaus. Just make sure your protein is a minimum of 1g/pound of bodyweight and your are still lifting weights, and you should be able to preserve your muscle mass.

3. Stubborn bodyfat tends to be the last bit of ab or lower back fat in men or thigh and tricep fat in women. In men, you aren't to the real "stubborn" fat until you are at or under 8-9%, which is fairly lean. So for you, at this stage, I wouldn't be too anal about the above protocol, though it couldn't hurt. Just primarily focus on HIIT cardio a couple/few times per week.

[texasmouth]

Originally Posted by Fireproof

1. I don't really care for consistently low carb diets for a long period of time. Especially if you are training. You can go really low carb for a couple weeks. Or you can carb cycle. But I think you can still make good progress with decent carbs in your diet (30%?) If you are concerned about it, you can eat low carb (<50gg) on non-weight training days and then have decent / average carbs on weight training days. And try to get your carbs primarily before and after your training.

2. That means you are at about 10x your bodyweight in calories. That's probably about right. Some people can consume a little more and still lose weight. Others less. I was able to continue good weightloss at the 10x level for a while, but did have to start dipping into 8xbodyweight to break plateaus. Just make sure your protein is a minimum of 1g/pound of bodyweight and your are still lifting weights, and you should be able to preserve your muscle mass.

3. Stubborn bodyfat tends to be the last bit of ab or lower back fat in men or thigh and tricep fat in women. In men, you aren't to the real "stubborn" fat until you are at or under 8-9%, which is fairly lean. So for you, at this stage, I wouldn't be too anal about the above protocol, though it couldn't hurt. Just primarily focus on HIIT cardio a couple/few times per week.

Thanks FP. Great advice as usual.

I think the worst part of it for me is to remain patient and let nature work its magic.

I also realize now that I am just taking in too many carbs all together. I am going to drop the sugar down to close to nothing and try to get my carbs the clean and healthy way and up my protein intake to where it is supposed to be.

[Ozz]

If it's not carbs but substance that you're falling prey to, switch out all your carb sources to vegetables. That will be a big help in numerous ways, and a great place to start cleaning things up regardless of what the other carb sources are. On a cut when you aren't focusing on keeping as much possible muscle as possible, this will be a great help.

[Fireproof]

Yep - I agree with MO - good suggestion about the veggies. One easy way to make an adjustment is to find one or two meals a day where you overeat carbs (or eat bad carbs) and just switch them out for veggies.

For me - I had to MAKE myself eat veggies, because I typically don't eat them or like them. But frozen broccoli or asparagus became my friend - I'd just heat it up in the microwave and eat that with my protein, and forego the starchy carbs altogether.

That helped give me good fiber (which is good for many reasons, including fat loss) and also helped me reduce calories because you can eat a giant bowl of veggies for an insanely low amount of calories, versus rice or potatos or bread or whatever. Veggies also fill you up!

[texasmouth]

I dont eat veggies at all. I hate them.

I like green beans but that is about it.

[Fireproof]

Haha - yep. That was me. I learned to like them...sort of. Still don't do a good job.

[texasmouth]

Originally Posted by Fireproof

Haha - yep. That was me. I learned to like them...sort of. Still don't do a good job.

I am going to implement a can of V8 to my diet. I know they are high in sodium but it is a way to get veggies in there. I really dont even like V8, it tastes like a can of spaghetti sauce to me.

[Ozz]

SC drinks V8 to get her vegetables in.

I love veggies so it was never a problem. Cottage cheese, on the other hand, I had to force-feed myself and fight back choking it up for a while before I got to the point where I could just eat it (and now I actually kinda like it!). I literally couldn't even let the stuff touch my tongue without getting a reaction from my stomach saying "no f'n way!". Just goes to show what you can do Be strong.

[Fireproof]

After trying a few samples of Palo Alto Labs' Leviathan (and of course reviewing the ingredient profile), I think it would make for a great supplement with the above Stubborn Bodyfat ritual. Wherever it talks about just taking yohimbe above, take Leviathan!

[questionesse]

Old thread, but still an important method I think.

2Qs:

1st if I got you right

Go home, and wait and hour before having a small protein meal (25-50 grams or so). No dietary fat. 2-3 hours later, go back to normal diet eating.

2-3 hrs after the protein meal or after the workout?

you are at about 10x your bodyweight in calories. That's probably about right. Some people can consume a little more and still lose weight. Others less. I was able to continue good weightloss at the 10x level for a while, but did have to start dipping into 8xbodyweight to break plateaus.

I guess weight in pounds x 10? = kilo calories? otherwise would be a bit little...
example: 75kg/165 pounds --> 750/1650 kilo calories?


third:
regarding the pulse range for the fat burning cardio (step2)
a common sense formula says 220-age*0,6 which results in 115 for a 28yrs old one like me.
That seems wuite low to me since I always thought I would be around 150-160 as the upper part of my aerobe range.

is there a more precise formular to calculate the pulse range?

thx!