[JoeD]

I still cant buy that a calorie is just a calorie. Since I was moving the entire weekend I had a typical American diet, 3 meals a day,whatever was the most convenient as time was a huge factor and my only other rule was eat something that was the best, worst meal. Meaning, when i went to a deli I chose the sandwhich that was loaded with veggies on top of my processed meat. I did however, get a treat with each meal like a donut or candy bar. I didn't drink a lick of alcohol either of the two days.

Overall, I ended up eating a LOT less calories than I normally consume, but I also broke out in acne, had incredibly bad gas (I never have gas, ever), bloated stomach, and poor energy levels throughout the two days. I felt like crap.

i couldn't wait to start eating my fruit, veggies and meats again. no bloating, no gas, my acne is still here (damn it lol), I'm more "regular," and have more "quality downloads."

I just can't buy the fact that there is no difference between a calorie when one makes me feel like dog sh*t, and the others give me energy. I just have to eat fruits/beans/seeds/nuts/lentils/meat/egsgs/dairy 80-85% of the time to feel optimal ..

[Darkhorse]

I don't think anyone would deny that some people can eat 2 doughnuts and feel amped up ready to go whereas another would get bloated and run down. If you need 3,000 kcals per day, divide that up however you wish my friend.

You should publish your two day findings.

[JoeD]

I should take a pic of the zits and the bloat to get peer reviewed

I just need real food.. in all honesty, it will come out eventually that eating more natural is the most optimal way to eat. The cal/in cal/out theory will be disproved... YOu heard it here first :-)

[xamo]

It seems to me you're taking this »calorie is just a calorie« thing out of context. I don't think it implies that your health isn't impacted by the food choices you make, just that your body composition is determined by macros regardless of where they come from. Your problems are all health related (bloat might be from access sodium) and some of them might be psychological as well (I'm eating crap so I should feel like crap). Can't explain the acnes though, maybe you're hitting puberty again

[JoeD]

Na I'm sensitive to gluten so if I eat it I will break out. I see what you're saying, I don't buy into the calorie is just a calorie thing though. I know there is research that supports it, but that doesn't mean it's infinitely true.

[xamo]

I know you're gluten sensitive, I didn't mean to make it sound like I think it's all (or any of it, actually) psychological.
And I do agree with you based on my limited experience on the sample of one (me) that certain foods make one feel better than others, but I don't think this is a »is a calorie just a calorie« question, it's more of a »how do I react to certain foods« question, which is what Dan already mentioned.

[kutt3r]

Originally Posted by JoeD

I just need real food.. in all honesty, it will come out eventually that eating more natural is the most optimal way to eat. The cal/in cal/out theory will be disproved... YOu heard it here first :-)

I really hope you are wrong Joe... sadly we both know that there is not enough 'good' food to go around for everyone, so I am counting on people eating from the middle of the store. As it is, it is hard enough to source good food these days.

[Nic]

I have noticed similar results. There have been weeks at work where my coworkers will convince me to go out for lunch to this bar that has some delicious burgers and fries. Usually what happens later in the day is the processed food eating continues at home when I get off work in the form of pizza or some other processed food. The next day the bloating is extremely noticeable and I usually feel incredibly sluggish. Although fruits have not been a large part of my diet as of late I have been incorporating them on a daily basis and I have found that I have not gotten sick in quite some time. Now I don't know if there is any direct correlation but I have not changed a whole lot in my overall diet with the exception of adding in more fruits.

[Shadow]

calories is a calorie is utter bullshit

[JoeD]

Originally Posted by Nic

I have noticed similar results. There have been weeks at work where my coworkers will convince me to go out for lunch to this bar that has some delicious burgers and fries. Usually what happens later in the day is the processed food eating continues at home when I get off work in the form of pizza or some other processed food. The next day the bloating is extremely noticeable and I usually feel incredibly sluggish. Although fruits have not been a large part of my diet as of late I have been incorporating them on a daily basis and I have found that I have not gotten sick in quite some time. Now I don't know if there is any direct correlation but I have not changed a whole lot in my overall diet with the exception of adding in more fruits.

you know what is crazy is that i can eat an entire pizza which is probably 2k cals and then within 2 hours be hungry all over again. I would have to really really try to eat 2K calories of lentils or something, but then I wouldn't be hungry for at least 5 more hours.

i also notice this

- no other species gets fat off their natural diet, even though they do have the ability to over eat..

- i have never seen anyone, ever, get fat off of a natural diet eating mainly veggies, meats, dairy, and fruit. I have never seen it ever in my entire life. every fat person eats "dirty."

[Darkhorse]

Originally Posted by JoeD

- i have never seen anyone, ever, get fat off of a natural diet eating mainly veggies, meats, dairy, and fruit. I have never seen it ever in my entire life. every fat person eats "dirty."

Joe, how many people have you seen eat 2,000 kcals per meal of clean foods? Fat people get fat from drinking a supersized Pepsi which takes them about 10 minutes to suck down 1,500 kcals right there, and we didn't even start to talk about their food choices.

A lot of people bring this argument up and it doesn't make sense. A #5 supersized with a coke vs. all the chicken breasts, veggies, fruits, and dairy one could possibly eat which would keep them full all day.

[Darkhorse]

Originally Posted by xamo

just that your body composition is determined by macros regardless of where they come from.

Good post. You can divide your calories up however you want as everyone reacts differently to different combinations of food and macros... The calorie argument is about a surplus/deficit, nothing more. If a group of people get shredded to the bone off of pancakes and poptarts, WTF is there to disprove with results much the same as others that prefer a keto with one weekly refeed meal. If one person can only handle whole foods whereas many others can handle protein shakes, who gives a **** IMO. Just go with what keeps you COMPLIANT. Any other observations and personal anecdotal footnotes is just mental masturbation and fall under the broken clock rule IME/IMHO.

[deadliftsmith]

I see two ways of thinking and two approaches that follow those ways of thinking.

First way of thinking: only being concerned with weight loss or gain.

Second way of thinking: on top of being concerned with weight loss or gain, there is an interest in internal health, optimal performance, and optimal day to day feeling of well being.

In terms of suiting the first way of thinking, it's only going to be about staying in a deficit or a surplus. Food choice is irrelevant, and micros/macros are actually irrelevant too.

In terms of suiting the second way of thinking, the goal will be to stay in a deficit or a surplus while consuming micronutrient dense foods that meet personal macronutrient needs.

[Darkhorse]

Originally Posted by deadliftsmith

In terms of suiting the second way of thinking, the goal will be to stay in a deficit or a surplus while consuming micronutrient dense foods that meet personal macronutrient needs.

Timely post.

[JoeD]

Originally Posted by Darkhorse

Joe, how many people have you seen eat 2,000 kcals per meal of clean foods? Fat people get fat from drinking a supersized Pepsi which takes them about 10 minutes to suck down 1,500 kcals right there, and we didn't even start to talk about their food choices.

A lot of people bring this argument up and it doesn't make sense. A #5 supersized with a coke vs. all the chicken breasts, veggies, fruits, and dairy one could possibly eat which would keep them full all day.

Because you can't do it on clean foods. The fat and fiber content would make you full for hours. if i ate 2k of almonds and a piece of meat i would be full forever. A pizza, I'll eat another one within 3 hours for another 2k cals. shitty eating just allows for it.

couple other thoughts

- way more to fat liberation then surplus and deficit... how can people put muscle on and drop fat at the same time? you can't have a surplus and a deficit at the same time.

- There's also something to clean /dirty food. FOr example, after a meal of good food an equal amount of cals from mcdonalds and my stomach feels like a bomb just detonated in it.

-- i also notice calorie counters are Yo-yo dieters. They will be lean for a bit, get tired of being starving eat a lot then go back to cal counting and starving.

- i also have noticed the same thing nic has as far as being sick. not even as much as the sniffles since dec 2010.

[Darkhorse]

That's my point Joe in that you don't see anyone get fat off of whole clean foods. It's not because it's "healthier", but rather it's too difficult to overeat with. But if someone sat on their couch all day and ate 15 tuna fish sandwiches with a heaping slice of avocado on each one to beef up the total calories, they will get just as fat as having 2 servings of weight gainer at dinner if on, say the warrior diet <<< Provided their intakes are higher than what they burn.

Good to see you here chiming in your expertise as well Dustin LOL!

There was a VERY good thread about some of these points on IM that you should take a look at. Don't worry, this isn't another Team Skip putting some of these myths about nutrition that I've been seeing lately. Just a roundtable of experts in good discussions.. HERE

Originally Posted by Norton

You brought up the point about sumo wrestlers and why they have so much more mass? simple actually, yes more food but obese people always have more muscle mass than the average person because they weigh more, so they proportionately need more muscle mass just to carry that weight. We found the same thing in our animal studies where animals that gained more bodyfat had more muscle and elevated rates of basal protein synthesis, not necessarily because they ate more, but because eating more caused more fat mass deposition and the body adapted by synthesizing more muscle to accommodate that. Is it more difficult to gain fat overeating protein? yes, but I"ve seen plenty of people do it. Eating enough protein to optimize anabolism and it boils down to a calorie issue. You can get fat overeating anything, even chicken and broccoli if you get your calories too high.

And you mention you want to really massively overfeed to stimulate anabolism, but if you are feeding so much protein and inducing thermogenesis by 20-30% more, then you really aren't overfeeding, because you lose 20-30% of the caloric value, so that's a bit of a sticking point for me.

EDIT: Just caught what you said about pizza. Just so you're aware, you're coming off as pizza being void of any fat content lol. If fats DOES keep you feeling satisfied longer from whole foods, it stands to reason that pizza lasting a whole lot longer than three hours in your gut (unless you're just drumming for dramatic effect).

[deadliftsmith]

Originally Posted by Darkhorse

Timely post.

Not sure what this means????

[Darkhorse]

Originally Posted by deadliftsmith

Not sure what this means????

Love the post, 100% agreed, came in just at the right time...

Choose A, B, or C (all of the above)..

[deadliftsmith]

Originally Posted by Darkhorse

Love the post, 100% agreed, came in just at the right time...

Choose A, B, or C (all of the above)..

[sbjones]

Originally Posted by Darkhorse

The calorie argument is about a surplus/deficit, nothing more.

I just wanted to highlight this very salient point. When it comes to losing weight, a calorie is a calorie. Body recomposition is another matter entirely.

[xamo]

Originally Posted by JoeD

- way more to fat liberation then surplus and deficit... how can people put muscle on and drop fat at the same time? you can't have a surplus and a deficit at the same time.

I think that recomp is misunderstood. People don’t actually catabolize fat and build muscle at exact same time, but rather the anabolic and catabolic cycles are shorter than during classic gaining/dieting approach. If you look at some recomp protocols (if you can call them that) like IF, carb cycling (which is also calorie cycling) or Pinder's huge cheat meals, they have periods of under and overeating (either couple of days or parts of a single day). As long as fat loss during under eating is greater than fat gain during overeating period and opposite for muscle gain, you end up with more muscle and less fat. Don't see any magic in that.

Anyway, that's just my opinion as I've been pondering this for a while before this topic started.

[leveraged_buyout]

I definitely think that a calorie of donuts is not the same as a calorie of apples, but mostly when it comes to overall well- being. There are some arguments being made that processed foods or junk foods actually "reprogram" your metabolism, but I think more studies need to be done on that point.

I do feel much better when I get the bulk of my calories from clean sources, rather than junk food. A lot of it is mental, some of it is physical. Meaning, I feel something almost akin to guilt for eating a slice (or three) of cheesecake, which makes me feel not so great.

Just my two cents.

[JoeD]

Originally Posted by Darkhorse

That's my point Joe in that you don't see anyone get fat off of whole clean foods. It's not because it's "healthier", but rather it's too difficult to overeat with. But if someone sat on their couch all day and ate 15 tuna fish sandwiches with a heaping slice of avocado on each one to beef up the total calories, they will get just as fat as having 2 servings of weight gainer at dinner if on, say the warrior diet <<< Provided their intakes are higher than what they burn.

Good to see you here chiming in your expertise as well Dustin LOL!

There was a VERY good thread about some of these points on IM that you should take a look at. Don't worry, this isn't another Team Skip putting some of these myths about nutrition that I've been seeing lately. Just a roundtable of experts in good discussions.. HERE



EDIT: Just caught what you said about pizza. Just so you're aware, you're coming off as pizza being void of any fat content lol. If fats DOES keep you feeling satisfied longer from whole foods, it stands to reason that pizza lasting a whole lot longer than three hours in your gut (unless you're just drumming for dramatic effect).

Im aware my pizza has fat, but I'm not kidding. Junk food just begets a bigger appetite.

That was my point too.

I think the BBers/PLers that get fat off of clean food are the ones stuffing and forcing themselves to pig out.

sbj - Sure, but the people who do crappy diets with low calories end up catabolizing muscle, and sometimes not even losing fat. In fact there are studies showing you can gain fat that way. Obviously the study used some really poor eating habits, really poor, but it was just demonstrating the fact a calorie isn't really a calorie in the grand scheme of things